• August 10, 2018 at 7:47 am#65640

    How many here do “Rotate 1/2 balance” for every rotate?

     

    A lot of shops around here have gone to every tire rotation being a “Rotate ½ balance”, where they rotate the tires going to the front.  (Obviously you can rotate all 4 tires if you want, this is a minimum thing – no rotate w/o at least balancing the tires going to the front)

    I like it.

     

    A lot of things are systemically handled, that otherwise require another tracking/upsell/documentation step if you do it the traditional way.

    -You achieve the balance on every other rotate interval that many recommend.
    -You greatly reduce any vibration or shake at highway speeds after service complaints.
    -You reduce the chance of missing out on the balance sale.

    -You take better care of the customer.

    I have already decided to finally implement it, many years after hearing about it…but I’d love to hear any input from anyone else who already has.

    August 10, 2018 at 1:17 pm#75204
    Tom Ham
    Participant

    How did you sell balancing in the past?

    How often?

    How often do you rotate?

    I kind of like the concept, but I’m afraid customers might get confused.

    Tom - Shop Owner since 1978

    August 10, 2018 at 2:19 pm#75205

    Great questions/thoughts, Tom.

    Here are my thoughts:

    How did you sell balancing in the past? 

    How often?

    How often do you rotate?  

    Our basic recommendation, is balance every 5,000 – 7,500 miles, balance every other rotate.   Some follow it.  We are NOT very good about it.   More often than not, the ones that make a problem with the vibration ever since, are ones that were never here before, or only here rarely….we have spotty history at best….rotate is upsold based on tread wear differential, no complaints or history.

    I kind of like the concept, but I’m afraid customers might get confused.

    I wasn’t really planning on tell them.  🙂    Rotate just went up a few dollars, techs got an additional .1 hr, and we’ll have less “ever since”, and sell more tire replacements if we see belt shifts on tires that are still gonna see trouble.   I changed the verbiage on the labor operation to “ROTATE 4 TIRES (Includes 1/2 bal)”   then describes the labor operation in too great of detail.
    I might change it simply to “ROTATE 4 TIRES”

    Honestly, we don’t have a lot of problems…but the few that it did occur on, (That we know about!!) it takes rotating them back, or balancing them…..we end up losing at least time, and work flow is blown up.   Often losing money.    We make a bad impression….  Some people probably took a day or so to notice their steering wheel didn’t feel the same, or shook, or……and just didn’t like the way their car worked after we had it in…but didn’t really know what or why they didn’t like it.

    WE KNOW that we really didn’t create this problem, their tires did, or our lack of proper information, documenting, and/or…..   They don’t care, they will blame us, at least partially.

     

    This way, I get a few bucks, my tech breaks even, the customers will be happier with the way the car rides overall – most of them may not know it….it’s like wiping their dash….they don’t know why their car seems more likeable since you were in it, but they know it is.  We have less wasted time.   Cars are maintained better.   It requires little to no effort on my SA or staff.   We just deleted the tire rotation canned job that we had and replaced it.

     

     

     

     

    August 14, 2018 at 8:01 am#75207

    Do you guys ever need to add or take away weight on a 5000-7500 balance? For a German car, I don’t remember ever having my guys needed to change weights.

    Some customers have it in there mind that they might need to check the balance.

    I think its a disservice to even imply balance every 500 to 7500 miles. Does anyone have any thoughts?

     

    August 14, 2018 at 8:14 am#75208
    Tom Ham
    Participant

    Since I live in both south Florida and Michigan, I can see where you would think that. Most roads in south Florida are smooth as glass compared to what we have in Michigan (and any other northern state). The need to check balance where you are is likely far less.

    Up here it is common for weights to come off regardless of how well you secure them. After 5,000 to 10,000 miles most cars have at least one wheel out of balance enough to rebalance it – often a wheel is bent from pothole damage.

    Tom - Shop Owner since 1978

    August 14, 2018 at 8:50 am#75209
    SpencersAuto
    Participant

    Don’t believe in rotating tires. Can cause more issues and comebacks. My customers are educated to this fact. Most understand it and for those that still wish we do it with that understanding.

     

    Do believe in balancing with road force including lateral force. This every 10,000 or once a year.

     

    Spence

    August 14, 2018 at 9:21 am#75210

    If I had a road force including a lateral force balancer it might see changes. Yes, Tom, Florida has smooth roads.  I think the most important thing with extended life oil changes is people drive their cars with the tires low or at the minimum pressure. That scallops the tires. We see 1/3 of the cars coming in our shop with chopped tires with full tread. I tell my guys to fill to the maximum psi on the side of the tires. That way the next time they come in we have the option of lowering the psi if the center wears more than the other side.  And we hardly ever rotate tires unless the customer asks. I tell my guys to look and feel the tires note the wear on the report.

     

    August 14, 2018 at 11:46 am#75213
    Joseph Van syoc
    Participant

    Not a bad idea! I mean how many of us have done a straight tire rotation only to have to pull it back in the shop to balance the front tires because we now have a shimmy?  I know I have.  I prefer to sell a full rotation and balance all 4 wheels as I am convinced that an imbalanced rear tire is still hard on things like wheel and axle bearings.  Maybe I’m wrong.  But including a half balance into the price of every tire rotation really does make good sense, thanks!

    August 14, 2018 at 12:18 pm#75214
    Joseph Van syoc
    Participant

    While we are on the topic, I am curious to know what you all get for tire rotations, and wheel balancing.  Seems to me that these are often used as a loss leader or even a freebie to get a chance to look at the brakes, and wheel balancing is artificially low because it is  so often sold as part of a new tire package.  Me I figure a rotation and balance at .8hr  It can take longer, especially with tape weights,(I am in a rural area with lots of dirt roads, and have to wash out most wheels prior to balancing) but then the price starts to get non competitive. So what do you think is a fair price?

    August 14, 2018 at 12:22 pm#75215
    Joseph Van syoc
    Participant

    I usually do a check spin at rotation time, and it is not unusual to see a tire out by an ounce or more at 10K.  .5-.75 is pretty common.

    August 14, 2018 at 9:16 pm#75216
    Craig O’Neill
    Participant

    Don’t believe in rotating tires. Can cause more issues and comebacks. My customers are educated to this fact. Most understand it and for those that still wish we do it with that understanding.

    Do believe in balancing with road force including lateral force. This every 10,000 or once a year.

    Spence

    YES!  I was just going through this thread and began to wonder if there was anyone else that thought like me on this.  We have a road-force balancer.  Once you see how many tires are out there with excessive road force, or have unacceptable lateral pull, you will never feel good about rotating tires in a conventional manner.

    Comebacks are to be expected with symptoms the client legitimately never had until you switched things around!

    One example:  We’ve seen tire shops adamantly insist the vibration is NOT caused by a NEW set of tires because they are perfectly balanced.  The balance was true, but  the tire on the LF  had 35lbs of road-force.   Mimicking an out of balance assembly at 55 mph.

    Would never sell or rotate tires without that machine again.

    August 15, 2018 at 4:57 pm#75217
    cumminsdoc
    Participant

    For those of you that don’t believe in rotation of tires I hope you like buying transfer cases on all wheel drive vehicles. All of the AWD vehicles built since the 1990’s can be damaged by a .5 inch differential in rolling circumference from the largest to the smallest tire on the vehicle. Many of the active AWD systems built since the early 2000’s can be damaged by as little as a .125 inch differential from larges to smallest tire. I have personally rebuilt/replaced transfer cases that have burned up clutches in as little as 15,000 miles because the customer failed to have the tires rotated causing excessive differential in rolling circumference. Not selling a rotation at every oil  change on an AWD vehicle is doing your customer a disservice.

    August 15, 2018 at 7:23 pm#75219
    SpencersAuto
    Participant

    Don’t believe in rotating tires. Can cause more issues and comebacks. My customers are educated to this fact. Most understand it and for those that still wish we do it with that understanding.

    Do believe in balancing with road force including lateral force. This every 10,000 or once a year.

    Spence

    YES! I was just going through this thread and began to wonder if there was anyone else that thought like me on this. We have a road-force balancer. Once you see how many tires are out there with excessive road force, or have unacceptable lateral pull, you will never feel good about rotating tires in a conventional manner.

    Comebacks are to be expected with symptoms the client legitimately never had until you switched things around!

    One example: We’ve seen tire shops adamantly insist the vibration is NOT caused by a NEW set of tires because they are perfectly balanced. The balance was true, but the tire on the LF had 35lbs of road-force. Mimicking an out of balance assembly at 55 mph.

    Would never sell or rotate tires without that machine again.

    Naaaaaaa… You’re not alone but just one of the few that has knowledge to back up their reason.

    August 15, 2018 at 7:30 pm#75220
    SpencersAuto
    Participant

    For those of you that don’t believe in rotation of tires I hope you like buying transfer cases on all wheel drive vehicles. All of the AWD vehicles built since the 1990’s can be damaged by a .5 inch differential in rolling circumference from the largest to the smallest tire on the vehicle. Many of the active AWD systems built since the early 2000’s can be damaged by as little as a .125 inch differential from larges to smallest tire. I have personally rebuilt/replaced transfer cases that have burned up clutches in as little as 15,000 miles because the customer failed to have the tires rotated causing excessive differential in rolling circumference. Not selling a rotation at every oil change on an AWD vehicle is doing your customer a disservice.

    Tall assumption on your part how you think of those that understand the difference. We check LOADED diameter and have yet to have a single transfer case failure due to tires. Sets that don’t meet our  loaded diameter tolerance are brought to the customers attention. You may wish to revisit your specs.

    Thanks for your comments none the less.

    August 19, 2018 at 7:02 pm#75221
    RS
    Member

    If I had a road force including a lateral force balancer it might see changes. Yes, Tom, Florida has smooth roads. I think the most important thing with extended life oil changes is people drive their cars with the tires low or at the minimum pressure. That scallops the tires. We see 1/3 of the cars coming in our shop with chopped tires with full tread. I tell my guys to fill to the maximum psi on the side of the tires. That way the next time they come in we have the option of lowering the psi if the center wears more than the other side. And we hardly ever rotate tires unless the customer asks. I tell my guys to look and feel the tires note the wear on the report.

    Telling your “guys” to put in the maximum psi on the side of the tire is WRONG. Think Ford EXPLODER… “Firestone argued that Ford’s recommended 26 psi inflation pressure was too low and should have been 30 psi.”   Monkeys at the tire shops just put in the wive’s tale 32 PSI. You are doing the exact same as the tires you are dealing with were not just designed for car A, but many cars… and EACH car has a recommended tire pressure…adhere to those pressures…

    Here in  Florida its best to set the tire 1-2 psi more than spec, MAX!  We get “cold” spells from time to time during “winter” and setting the correct pressure of lets say 36 psi at time of service, because that is the cars spec…. then the next day we get a “cold” spell, and customer starts car first thing in the morning, and the TPMS light is on… and start questioning if the shop “guy” did his job right… Putting doubt in the customers mind… ” I doubt he checked my tires, I’m not going back there” OR “that bastard didn’t check my tire pressures” and comes back to the shop making a scene in front of your other customers…not a good thing.

    So Alan, lesson to learn here is NOT to put tires max psi rating… put 1-2 more psi than CAR spec, during “winter” time here in FL….the other 90% of the year, put in the CAR spec psi.

    August 20, 2018 at 12:37 pm#75222
    cumminsdoc
    Participant

    For those of you that don’t believe in rotation of tires I hope you like buying transfer cases on all wheel drive vehicles. All of the AWD vehicles built since the 1990’s can be damaged by a .5 inch differential in rolling circumference from the largest to the smallest tire on the vehicle. Many of the active AWD systems built since the early 2000’s can be damaged by as little as a .125 inch differential from larges to smallest tire. I have personally rebuilt/replaced transfer cases that have burned up clutches in as little as 15,000 miles because the customer failed to have the tires rotated causing excessive differential in rolling circumference. Not selling a rotation at every oil change on an AWD vehicle is doing your customer a disservice.

    Tall assumption on your part how you think of those that understand the difference. We check LOADED diameter and have yet to have a single transfer case failure due to tires. Sets that don’t meet our loaded diameter tolerance are brought to the customers attention. You may wish to revisit your specs.

    Thanks for your comments none the less.

    My specs come straight from Chrysler engineering. Loaded or unloaded circumference makes no difference in the real world. The same amount of rubber for each tire has to roll down the road each time the tire goes around which ever way you measure it. I have literally had to deal with hundreds of Chrysler, Ford and Volvo AWD systems with shudder complaints since the mid 1990’s. Nearly all of them were traced back to mismatched rolling circumference of tires. Some could be fixed by just putting a good set of matched tires. Most either needed a viscous coupling replacement or  t/case overhaul. In drastic mismatch cases I have seen ptu’s blown apart dropping pieces as they rolled of the flat bed that delivered them to the shop. Do what you want with your customers. I will recommend to mine what I feel will do best to prolong the life of their vehicle.

     

    August 20, 2018 at 1:13 pm#75223

    If I had a road force including a lateral force balancer it might see changes. Yes, Tom, Florida has smooth roads. I think the most important thing with extended life oil changes is people drive their cars with the tires low or at the minimum pressure. That scallops the tires. We see 1/3 of the cars coming in our shop with chopped tires with full tread. I tell my guys to fill to the maximum psi on the side of the tires. That way the next time they come in we have the option of lowering the psi if the center wears more than the other side. And we hardly ever rotate tires unless the customer asks. I tell my guys to look and feel the tires note the wear on the report.

    Telling your “guys” to put in the maximum psi on the side of the tire is WRONG. Think Ford EXPLODER… “Firestone argued that Ford’s recommended 26 psi inflation pressure was too low and should have been 30 psi.” Monkeys at the tire shops just put in the wive’s tale 32 PSI. You are doing the exact same as the tires you are dealing with were not just designed for car A, but many cars… and EACH car has a recommended tire pressure…adhere to those pressures…

    Here in Florida its best to set the tire 1-2 psi more than spec, MAX! We get “cold” spells from time to time during “winter” and setting the correct pressure of lets say 36 psi at time of service, because that is the cars spec…. then the next day we get a “cold” spell, and customer starts car first thing in the morning, and the TPMS light is on… and start questioning if the shop “guy” did his job right… Putting doubt in the customers mind… ” I doubt he checked my tires, I’m not going back there” OR “that bastard didn’t check my tire pressures” and comes back to the shop making a scene in front of your other customers…not a good thing.

    So Alan, lesson to learn here is NOT to put tires max psi rating… put 1-2 more psi than CAR spec, during “winter” time here in FL….the other 90% of the year, put in the CAR spec

    Thanks for the FYI. Basiclly most german cars  are set to 38-42 . And then if we see the center wearing “this hardly ever happens” Because of the 10-15k peple go for oil changes without checking preessure. Thanks Ollie

    August 20, 2018 at 2:03 pm#75225
    SpencersAuto
    Participant

    For those of you that don’t believe in rotation of tires I hope you like buying transfer cases on all wheel drive vehicles. All of the AWD vehicles built since the 1990’s can be damaged by a .5 inch differential in rolling circumference from the largest to the smallest tire on the vehicle. Many of the active AWD systems built since the early 2000’s can be damaged by as little as a .125 inch differential from larges to smallest tire. I have personally rebuilt/replaced transfer cases that have burned up clutches in as little as 15,000 miles because the customer failed to have the tires rotated causing excessive differential in rolling circumference. Not selling a rotation at every oil change on an AWD vehicle is doing your customer a disservice.

    Tall assumption on your part how you think of those that understand the difference. We check LOADED diameter and have yet to have a single transfer case failure due to tires. Sets that don’t meet our loaded diameter tolerance are brought to the customers attention. You may wish to revisit your specs.

    Thanks for your comments none the less.

    My specs come straight from Chrysler engineering. Loaded or unloaded circumference makes no difference in the real world.

    This is real world. Here’s a thought for you… Let 20 psi out of a tire… Does it have the same rolling circumference as the other three? Yet if the tire is hanging on your lift it has the same circumference. So loaded is different.

    As far as the rest of your comment I think we are closer then you realize. I will agree mismatched circumference could create an issue if above spec. We have our road force balancer setup to flag the issue if it is above spec. rotation or not.

    Have a good day!

    Spence

    August 24, 2018 at 5:27 pm#75227
    Tom Knapp
    Member

    We have a lot of 4wheel drive diesels we rotate every 5000 miles. The 1/2 balance is a good idea. Helps with vibration and ultimately a customer complaint.

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